Jake Van Buschbach 0:01
Hey everybody Jake from umbrella IT services here and today we're gonna be speaking with Mark Stoiber from brand DIY. Mark is an absolute marketing wizard. He's been recognized by almost every international award for design and advertising. He's written for Huffington Post. He's spoken at TEDx. And today he's going to be dropping a ton of information for us about branding, marketing, and a lot of other fun information. So don't any further ado, let's jump into it.
I have to give mark a big thank you for coming on today and talking with us about branding, his experience in the industry and a number of other topics. So Mark, thank you so much for coming on today. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? How did you get into the field of marketing and branding? and What experience do you have in the field? Oh, man, well, that takes us back to before electricity. That's how long I've been around. I
Marc Stoiber 0:51
I was an immigrant kid. And so I have two options, which was either work at my dad's TV store selling TVs or become a lawyer.
I spent a lot of time working for my dad. So I decided I should be a lawyer because I couldn't work for my dad. And so I got as far as getting into law school and then I discovered I wasn't cut out for law. And then I got lucky, got some scholarships to go study in Europe. And by hook and by crook landed at a company called long jeans, which is a watch company. And as part of my work with them, I drifted into the graphic design department and I discovered that people were actually making a living taking pictures and writing words, to sell watches. And that to me was a revelation. I have no idea advertising even existed. Fast forward. The folks at long jeans or at this point, Swiss timing, their timing division. They invited me to go work at the Olympics in Korea. And after the Olympics, I'd heard about Hong Kong being a place where you could go if you're a young, dynamic and utterly unemployable pretty much on me and so I went to Hong Kong with a shabby little port.
folio of photocopies of pictures and words sell me all kinds of stuff. And I fell into a great job working for a great creative director from the UK, everybody in Hong Kong is from somewhere else. And so I had a wonderful apprenticeship into becoming a writer. And that's when I fell in love with advertising. I just loved the craft of it. And I love the design and I love also the fact that you can be very good at something like design or photography or music. But you get to work with professional directors and musicians and designers and say, Yeah, a little more to the left a little more to the right. And it's a wonderful thing bringing these things life is commercial art. And it's funny because I've lived through a lot of evolutions. I worked in a couple of different continents, worked at a lot of big ad agencies I I rose to my level of incompetence, the Peter Principle and became national creative director of a big data you
And then I sort of stepped back. And I said, you know, the thing is, after you've won all the awards, and made all the money, which I kind of had, you realize that there's nothing there because what you're doing essentially is selling whatever somebody gives you for money. And there's not a whole lot of personal values or passion in that if you've already won the awards and made the money because that was kind of what we were there for winning awards. And so I pulled out and I started a green ad agency, I moved my family. I was at that time posted in Toronto, and I moved my family back to Vancouver and I started a green ad agency. Because I thought, you know, as somebody working in advertising, the better I do my job, the quicker I kill my kids, because advertising is all about promoting hyper consumption. I'm really good at you get people to consume a whole lot of stuff they don't need. So great, great stories. They're one of my last hurrahs and big advertising was resuscitating and rescuing Mr. Clean everybody knows but nobody was buying they were about to sell the brand it was defunct. And I remember the very first project we got they introduced four new sense flavors of Mr. Clean yeah so ring summer winter fall and go Why would you do that the orange and lemon is just perfectly fine. And they said well you wouldn't want to be cleaning with a summer Mr. Clean if it's September and you wouldn't want to be cleaning with winter Mr. Clean if is if it's April. So essentially what they were doing was encouraging people to get Mr. Clean and throw the stuff out so they can get the new scent. And you just go that's wrong on so many levels. But you just keep doing it. It starts to show up in your personal life. You know, as you you know, you have you have too many drinks on a Friday night and stuff like that because you realize that what you're doing for a living is pretty crappy. And that also is Set the course for where I am today. Which is, I like to work a lot with entrepreneurs and founders and startups and
the people that tend to find me are in sustainability. They're in tech, and they're in healthcare. And there's a different reason for each of them. Because what my specialty is, is, is taking complex things and making them simple and attractive. And when you work in sustainability, I ran my own green agency for a while and I love working with folks and sustainability because they're hopeless. And the thing is, we work in sustainability. You've seen this so many times. They know they're right. Yeah. That the environment is dying and that we're all you know, we're all going to hell. But what they don't realize is that being right isn't enough because if you have a powerful lobbyists for the wrong side, they'll pound you and healthcare completely different reason. I'm also a big believer in, you know, health and vitality versus just getting people hooked on drugs. I've worked on a whole bunch of natural health clients. And the problem with healthcare is that doctors have been raised that to believe that patients have to listen to them, because they're so in marketing, nobody has to listen to you. And they can't get over that. Yeah. And finally, in tech, the third sector that seems to come all the time to me, you have people who just can't speak like humans. And so
Jake Van Buschbach 6:32
Marc Stoiber 6:34
yeah, they can claim their way out of a wet paper bag. So healthcare, sustainability, and tech, I especially love tech because I love shiny new things. Those are the folks that come to me with their challenges. And all I do is help make them give them something simpler and more compelling to say,
Jake Van Buschbach 6:52
Yeah, I really like that you called what you do commercial art. I've never heard marketing and branding called that before. Oh dear.
Marc Stoiber 7:02
I mean because anybody who is still under the mistaken impression that what they're creating is art should go back to the forest and to their potter's wheel because it's not art. Yeah, whatever it is, it's it's just figuring out how to it's 100% psychology. Yeah. 100% how to how to hold people's attention until you sell them something.
Jake Van Buschbach 7:22
How do you sell them the excess fat on this pig? And then you get the bacon and egg breakfast.
Marc Stoiber 7:29
Bingo, except that on pigs, I'll write that down.
Jake Van Buschbach 7:34
So you unpacked a lot there. So how would you recommend that somebody who's in a startup position like myself, or others are small local business owners? How can we avoid going from our we've got a purpose for solving legitimate issues. We know that we're right like you said, How do we avoid transforming into these corporate sterilize behemoths as we grow so let's say my business goes from To 10 employees to 50 to 100 employees. Have you noticed that it's consistent for these larger businesses to become sterilized and to become these these monoliths that are just shipping and shipping products to consumers without caring what they're doing anymore?
Marc Stoiber 8:16
Interesting question. That's a really good one. No, because there is an X Factor, and that is digital and social. And what is wonderful about the time we live in, even though it forces guys like me to constantly re re learn and question everything that they've done before, remember, I came up in an environment that was essentially print radio, television. And so you got really good at limited things and you got you got to hone your craft, and then boom, the internet happened, and then boom, social happen and then boom, emerging happen and every time you got to a point where you go, I'm starting to get this it would knock you back on your butt. However, that's not the point. The point is what's wonderful. about digital is that it has suddenly become more about the company that is creating the product and the product itself. What we're what we've seen is a sort of an up ending of the traditional product launch where it used to be that it was really easy to think of a product because there weren't that many around relatively speaking, it was really hard to make a product because nothing was in place to make it so getting even a CAD drawing getting a model made millions of dollars. That's why Procter and Gamble and Unilever and hankel and all those big companies existed because it was so hard for a little company to launch a product. And third, it was extremely easy to market a product because there were so few channels now
What's beautiful is it's really hard come up with an original idea, but really easy to bring a new product to the market. And it's also hard to market a product because there are so many channels by More important, it has become a ping pong match. It used to be a megaphone where I'd yell at you to buy stuff. And you just did. Mm hmm. Now you're going yeah, but what about that sweatshop? Yeah, but what about what you do with animals? Yeah, but what about what about and if I don't have an answer for you, you're gonna kill me now. I would say probably the best example of a company that is started in the old paradigm but had the right values and has seen has seen incredible growth and incredible success is Patagonia. Patagonia clothing, if you go to their website, you'll see it's all about the back and forth. It's all about activism. It's all about what you believe in. Oh, and by the way we make clothes. Yeah, that is super cool. And entirely different from the world I grew up in which was a whole bunch of men and gray flannel suit. Hmm. invisible, faceless, selling toxic stuff and telling you to throw the rest down the toilet When it got halfway done. So as a start up, I'd say there's a lot less danger today of falling into the big, nasty corporate trap. Because the world is keeping you honest. The more successful you are, the more
Jake Van Buschbach 11:14
they're going to focus on keeping you honest, that makes sense. So the secret would just be stick to it, stick to your values. Focus on what gets you out of bed in the morning. And don't worry about the money. Don't worry, don't worry about the commoditization of what you're doing. Well,
Marc Stoiber 11:29
yeah, I mean, you're looking at companies now like Warby Parker, they make they make good stuff, Harry's razors, they make good stuff. Do they make great stuff? No. But there there is a fundamental sort of underlying philosophy of the company. And, you know, they, if they if they don't buy it, if they if they don't actually do this, they're gonna get busted real quick, but there's a philosophy in the company that people are buying it. It goes back to Simon Sinek. And why do you exist as opposed to what do you make you know? Steve Jobs I want to be cool. I want to be groovy. I love Steve Jobs. I don't know what his personality was like, but all I know is that he was a groovy dude. And he liked typography and purple computers. I would buy a frying pan from him. I don't care.
Jake Van Buschbach 12:14
Yeah, I'm obviously I know a lot about Steve Jobs. I'm a big fan of his I know that he was a bit of a sociopath, but I don't think you can change the world the way he did without being a little bit of a monster. But the most impactful thing that I think he did, he did so much stuff, but one of the most impactful things I think he did was creating that iMac, back in the early 2000s with all the different colors. But what he did with that series specifically, which is always kind of stuck with me Is he put a handle on it, so that people would understand they could touch it. And he put all these curves on it and all of these different colors and it was a very, like you said groovy kind of situation. And it turned the computing world front it turns of computing world personal is what it did. It showed regular consumers That I can computer is something you can touch. That's something you can pick up. It's something you can interact with. And it's the same principle for every time you walk into an apple store, they purposely set the MacBook displays up, I believe at 35 or 37 degrees. So you have to push them back. So you can look at them a little bit more. They want you to touch them, they want you to go in and feel the devices and like you said, it all comes down to the psychology of selling and I think it's really important that you said it's why do you exist? Not what are you selling me? I'm thinking
Marc Stoiber 13:34
there's a Nick, you know, we're going off I'm gonna go off topic here a little bit. But you know, I also believe it when you said you know, how am I going to avoid becoming an asshole if I grow too big a nice problem to have. Most entrepreneurs don't have that problem. They have the problem of how am I going to stay in business. And what I think is interesting today, especially today, way more today is that there is a unbounded opportunities to evolve and innovate in ways that are a bit Zig when everybody else says I want to take razors for an example now great case study about Gillette you know, they came up with the original Mach three razor three blades better than two, two blades better than one one blade better than the the old razor. And so they got this big, faceless company said, we are going to chase this down the rabbit hole because that's what big companies do. They get good at inventing one thing, and then protecting their turf, which is suicide today because it's so easy to invent new stuff. Yeah. So they go then from the three bladed razor to the five bladed razor with a swiveling head and vibration and a menthol strip because well, you know, because anyway, they innovate the crap out of this old model and then Harry's and Dollar Shave Club comes along ago. People don't give a rat's about how many blades and we don't you get to a certain number of blades and you don't Care. Yeah. And then what they care about is going to the store and paying $20 for a little stack of razor blade recharges.
Knowing that 19 of that goes to Roger Federer
or whoever their spokesmodel is. And so they changed the way of getting razors to people and boom, blew the market apart. It's the horseless carriage, you know, yeah. And, and that's what I love for entrepreneurs, who are innovating, who are thinking of is something to keep it simple. Be careful about jumping on the incremental innovation bandwagon and take a look, if it's not the product, it could be the process. If it's not the process, it could be the service. There's so many things to look at and with digital. The thing that scares me and thrills me is that everything can come back to you and you can test everything and you can try stuff and your head will explode with so many new ways of marketing.
Jake Van Buschbach 15:58
Yeah, absolutely. What are some of the ways that you measure successful marketing? So let's say that I've got a radical new idea, or I've got a great idea. I've noticed my clients are loving it. My AB testing is going super well. And I'm getting a lot of positive feedback. How do I strap rockets onto that? And how do I measure the success and make sure that what I'm doing is on the right path? Well, that's
Marc Stoiber 16:18
a awesome question. I'm gonna get back to something that Jesus taught me know when, because that's how far back this goes. Yeah. This is the oldest trick in the entire book. And actually, I'm just launching a course with this. I'm in beta testing right now with it. But it's all about research. And it's not about product research. It's not about technological research. It's about finding out what people want. And this in our day and age of digital interconnectivity. People, ironically, are having a harder and harder time just sitting across from each other going so what do you like? What do you hate? Because we're raising a generation of social morons who are have the headphones on and text, yeah, and having a personal conversation with someone is getting really hard for them. But it's imperative. And what you do. You call up your customer who loves your stuff. And you say, so how come you love my stuff? What do you love about my stuff? What do you hate about my stuff? What do you wish I did better? What am I killing it on? And you ask them these questions. And what you're gonna find
is that if you talk to a few of them, and I'm not
talking about talking to everyone, talking about 15 to 20, people who love your stuff, you talk to them And oh, by the way, you don't send them an online poll, because that's cheating. That goes right back to the headphones and texting. Yeah, you don't get real answers. You sit and have a coffee and look at the whites of their eyes. Yeah, because body language tells you everything and you can hit them with the why, why? Why? Why, you know, I'm so you asked. That, and what you're going to see is a pattern emerge, that everybody seems to really love this and really hate that and really wish you're doing this thing. And you're going to see a certain type of person, you know, you call them avatars, you call them personas, whatever you want to call them. a certain type of person, a smaller sub segment of your audience tends to buy 80% of your stuff. Yeah. And I take that and I go, alright, who is that person? I define him or her so I can actually see them. What do they do on a Sunday? What do they like to train? Bah, bah, bah, bah. Yeah. And I replicate them. And I mirror them. And I appeal to other people like that person, saying the stuff that drew that one person to my product in the first place. That's the beauty of digital.
Jake Van Buschbach 18:49
That makes a lot of sense. So when you're deriving that person and you're finding these avatars are these archetypes is it best to go with the lowest common denominator like Myself, for example, we work for so many different types of people I know people that are selling products or selling products to so many different types of people. Is it better to just go for the lowest common denominator that you can find? So for example, middle aged men, professional services, or executives or presidents, etc? Or do you want to find things like okay, 20% of these guys are playing golf. 15% of them love NASCAR, small percentage of them like fishing. There's a there's the other side of the coin, which is the ladies and they have their interests, etc. How do you usually end up breaking down the demographic of these archetypes?
Marc Stoiber 19:34
I'm I'm a simple guy. And so I always go for the simplest answer. Yeah. And the first question is, who gave you money twice? But give you money once? Yeah, whoever gave you money twice. There's already a sub segment and that takes 80% of them out of the equation. Yeah. Unless you've got a product they only have to buy once but, you know, assuming you've got a product that they want to subscribe to. They weren't buying multiple times, or they want to buy the add ons or something. When they buy twice or multiple times, they are buying into something like sounds as opposed to just buying a solution. And that becomes a smaller slice of the pie already, then you want to look at degrees of difficulty. How hard is it to reach a sort of person who lives in isolation, I'm just going to pull this out of my ear. But somebody who lives in isolation a million miles from nowhere, probably a lot harder than it is to reach somebody who loves to live in a city. You know where I can, or I can put out one ad and reach all of them. Although with digital, all bets are off, right? We're all in new city. So I always look at degrees of difficulty. I go, who buys the stuff lots, because they're obviously buying into more than just a product. Yep. And then how can I start to narrow and narrow and narrow and narrow Until I get a very, very tight niche now, you're saying, why would you want to narrow in actual fact what I want to do I want to spread that pie. I want to I want everybody to buy my stuff. Well, good luck. Because what you're doing then is infringing on the turf of a bunch of your competitors. And they all offer stuff and it gets confusing. Nobody understands what you're standing for what they're standing for, it becomes a mushy mess. Yeah. A good brand goes narrow, narrow, narrow, knowing that even if they go brutally narrow in their targeting, there's still plenty of food,
plenty of money, plenty of product to sell.
So that is the first counterintuitive thing that entrepreneurs have to know you want to go narrow, but start with a question. Who gave
you money twice? Yeah,
Jake Van Buschbach 21:47
that's awesome. I was. I'm glad you brought that up. Because that was actually my next question for you was as someone with limited resources as a lot of local or smaller businesses are. I also very strongly believe in what you just said about Finding your niche hammering it and going down as small as you can go with it if I can find engineers that work specifically on hydro electric systems, and their names are Steve, you know what I mean? Like, I want to go as narrow as I can possibly go when I'm trying to find my clients. Is it strategic? Or is it wasteful for a business with limited resources to find multiple niches that they're able to serve just as efficiently and just as well? For example, let's say you're a watch manufacturers, you might wear a razor manufacturers you mentioned. And they're able to find let's say that Harry's were to start targeting college football teams, you know what I mean? Would it be effective for them at the same time to be running a second or third campaign targeting female volleyball teams or going after these kind of things? You know, I mean, going after different niches at the same time, or is it more effective to just find one, hammer it master it, and then when the time is right, add on a secondary service the way Apple did why by transitioning from the iPod The iPhone so you don't become that dinosaur that you're talking about and stuck in that innovation loop and that one product or service niche?
Marc Stoiber 23:07
Well because I have I have a limited brain I can only think of so many things at the same time. So going after multiple targets. If you ask anybody in a big packaged goods company, they'll go not suicide man. That is not and they've got a billion dollars. You don't do however, guys in college, Harry's razors girls in college, Harry's razors you go they're completely different people, right? Wrong. Oftentimes, the niche isn't defined by sex, age, marital status,
employment. It's not defined by that.
If you go down a few levels, it can be very much defined by their worldview, what their priorities in life or what their perspective on corporations is or, you know, a psychological thing which could be anyone Who doesn't want to pay a stupid model? $19 of the $20 of a new pack of razors?
Unknown Speaker 24:06
Yep. Oh, boy, girl dog. I don't
Marc Stoiber 24:09
care. Yeah, they hate giving their money to Roger Federer or Kim Kardashian. They're in could be a boy or a girl could be young or old.
Jake Van Buschbach 24:18
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I think my issue there is that I actually fell into the trap of what am i selling? Not Why am I selling it? Or who am I helping? Because again, looking at those Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. What What resources do you usually recommend to people wanting to learn more about this stuff? Or if they're starting their first campaigns or they're already an established business running campaigns? What resources do you recommend for the law?
Marc Stoiber 24:42
I recommend a bunch of stuff. First off, hold on.
There are these are this this one is so old, you know, it's got rust on it. Yeah. But this is a classic book. It's called positioning and it was written back in the 80s. And I just reread it again. And it's every bit as relevant as it was back then. And what most people don't realize is that the act of marketing has very little to do with drawing pretty pictures or writing fun words. That's like putting the paint on the house, the sanding, this is the sanding, figuring out where you should position your product so that you can beat your competitors or avoid your competitors and talk to a lucrative group of people who really want what you got. That's one, this is another one. This one is one of the few business books that I I go back to again and again and again and it's hard to find. It's called why Johnny can't brand and for any entrepreneur who wants to embark on building their brand or toning up their brand, this is a killer read bite in paperback from Amazon. Because you're gonna want to skip around so don't get a Kindle version. The third thing that I would recommend if you want to skip ahead and go straight to a live interactive sort of forum, I started a group on Facebook called brand DIY. And if folks go to my, my website, which is Mark Stoiber ma RC, St. Oh I br calm, they will find in the resources section, a book called brand DIY. And it walks you through five steps in building your own brand. And it's important, I'm not saying that building your own brand is cool because it's cheap. But it's important to an entrepreneur who wants to have control and understanding of a brand which a lot of the time has been positioned as this mythical thing that only these guys in black turtlenecks can understand. Mm hmm. I want to demystify this because it is actually a relatively simple process. It goes right back to the research question Who gave you money? Yeah, everybody understands that it is that simple. So check out brand DIY the book, and then go to Facebook. And you can actually type in I bought the URL, brand DIY group.com. And that'll take you to the group. Every day. There is brand tips every day. There's a live stream, we just had a live stream with a candidate for the Green Party and how he's reworking his brand based on being an entrepreneur. So you know, there's daily bits that people can learn from it's, it's lively. And what I like to focus on is the fundamentals. Not the technology because that you can shave a monkey and put them behind a computer and they can do the technology for you. Yeah, in marketing. There's a reason that Omni comm has the second had the worst second quarter in forever. They own all the ad agencies. It's because the technology evolved in marketing is commoditized. And democratized you can do it No, but you'll do a bad job of it if you don't do the fundamentals. Anything
Jake Van Buschbach 28:05
else that makes a lot of sense. We've recently had Michelle saga Rowley on to talk about brand differentiation and and she really drilled home how important it is, for people the way you just mentioned, to understand what you're doing, what makes you different, how to leverage your individuality. And if you're just going out there saying I'm different, okay, what makes you different? Oh, well, we're really good at customer service. And we're the fastest and we're the best, and everyone is saying that. But if you're getting out of bed, for example, I believe was a financial adviser who was very much into meditation. And he ended up rebuilding his company in that image. And using a meditation and these kind of values and principles, and his company ended up rapidly expanding, all of his clients are much happier, he was much more centered and relaxed, his staff had been happier and more fulfilled. And it was very interesting to hear him talk about that stuff. I really like that you're having a lot of overlap with that. Because like you said, you gotta you got to build the foundation of the house, you got to sand the house, then you can paint it, then you can do all the sizzle on top of the steak. So the
Marc Stoiber 29:07
problem is there's a fundamental problem. Digital, I love digital. The problem with digital world is that it has created an arms race for commoditizing all the tools of the marketing trade. So on Facebook, if I go on Facebook or LinkedIn, I can reach out to 5000 very targeted people in my network and sell them something. It used to be. You couldn't do that. Yeah. However, with this commoditization, it has made it easier and easier and easier to put a message out. And just because you can put a message out, doesn't mean you should put a message out and
that's what a lot of people miss.
Jake Van Buschbach 29:44
That reminds me a lot of I've heard a couple of comedians talk about this where back in the day, if you watched a TV show you didn't like it or you got into a fight with someone over the phone, you didn't like it, you would have to write a letter. You'd have to sit there for 15 minutes, write the whole thing out reread it, get an envelope, put it in the envelope, get a postage stamp, walk down the post office, send it off. And by that point you've filtered out all the crazies. Most people are done like they're like, this is ridiculous. I'm not doing it's not worth my time I got things to do done. But nowadays, you see something and it's, I don't like this and it's instant. You can just put it out there and just spew whatever it is you want to spew. And we have this information overload kind of going on. So
Marc Stoiber 30:25
yeah, I mean, and then a million people know you're a dickhead. Right, exactly. And that applies to marketing as well as to Twitter transfer Twitter tantrums, yeah. Our dick pics or whatever you know you want to do. Yeah, there is so many examples. If you want to look at a Kenneth Cole. Cole did an absolute stinker when the Arab Spring happened. He wrote a tweet or put it on Facebook or something it says turns out they were just trying to get into our store to get into our spring sale. Take the phone away from like Donald Trump. Take your phone away. You can put a message out to a million people. Yes, you should.
Jake Van Buschbach 31:05
Yeah. 100%. So really quickly because I know that you got to get running. How do you recommend that? We always make sure that when we are putting things out to our audience that it is valuable? How do you recommend we kind of filter that ourselves?
Marc Stoiber 31:17
Super easy, super easy. Go back to the person who gave you money twice? Yep. Say so what sucks about this thing that I'm trying to do to sell more stuff? Awesome.
Jake Van Buschbach 31:31
Nice. I love it.
Marc Stoiber 31:33
99% of us don't do because once we've created something, we have ownership, it's our baby and going to one of our customers and saying what sucks is saying what's ugly about my baby wants to hear that. Nobody. So but it's crucial if you want to improve that you absolutely become a Zen master about parking your ego. And that you say I'm going to take the advice in the right way. It has a So as a sort of a signal for improvement as opposed to going, you don't like my baby. Important thing i would i would recommend is going to people live white to their eyes, asking them what sucks. Don't ask them what they love about you.
Jake Van Buschbach 32:14
No worries, that sounds perfect. All right, Mark. So I know we gotta get going. But we're going to have to have you on again, because I have a lot more questions for you. But we can continue this another day. So thank you so much for coming on. I hope this gave everybody a really good foundation and things to start with, with branding. And those three books, I'm definitely going to be buying one or two of them that I can already tell you. And yeah, do you have anything that you want to promote before we before we go?
Marc Stoiber 32:37
I mean, all I would say to people is just go to my website, Mark storybird comm if you can link it, that'd be awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and yeah, I'll go to brand diy.com and it walks you right through to the Facebook group.
Jake Van Buschbach 32:51
Awesome. See everybody, make sure to check out those links to brand DIY and Mark Stoiber comm in the description. We'll throw anything else in there that mark sends us after the show. And again, thank you so much for coming on mark. We'll talk to you soon. Rock Yeah, have a great day. I know. And I think that does it for today's video. If you could please leave a like on this video it really helps us out. If you want to see more videos like this then please hit subscribe. If you have a suggestion for a future video or a guest you'd like to see on the show, please leave a comment down below or email us at Tech Tips at umbrella it services.ca Have a great day and see you all soon.